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A different perspective

  • I know I am late on this topic and many people has gotten past it but I must say something that has been on my mind for a while. I remember when Coach Jones first made the change to Brendon Kay my thought was "Lyle won't be here next year". I didn't say that because I didn't think he wanted to be here. I really do believe he wanted to stay. Anybody who have been apart of the Bearcat fanbase knows our boosters and board members are a handful to deal with. Also the media is so negative and awkward when dealing with UC that it's difficult to even watch or read the press releases at times. Butch Jones would to have gone through a hell of a spring and summer if he would have stayed because of the Munchie fiasco. He would have been second guessed all off season and he would have to defend every decision he made because he was shown to be inept at one point or another (2010 offense of line). I am an aspiring coach and I was not there at those practices and I understand winning but there is some point as a coach that close calls, 50% passer rating, the player not choosing to run the ball when it's his strength, and other bad decisions becomes too much. Butch was stubborn to a fault and he knew he couldn't stay here in peace. Could he have made up for it the next year? Yes but his decision making alone this year may have cost the team another outright championship. He knows it, he know the news outlets, and fanbase knows it. I honestly don't think he can deal with it very well. He never seemed good with answering the hard question or negative questions about himself and he was never going to be good at it. I wish him good luck in Tennessee if he ran from a job because it was becoming too much boy Tennessee is going to be a totally different monster.

  • I think CBJ has a been a learning work in progress. I have repeatedly said he got his BS at CMU and his MS at UC in coaching. I do not think he would make this mistake again.

    As for staying - I think he could have easily stayed. Had he stayed we would have whopped up on Duke so badly that the fan base would be happy.

    I think the next level of learning would have been to employ a more entertaining offense. You can look at the imagination used in the UConn game and see how more entertaining a UC game could be. A further example of what could have been coming was the Belk Bowl. Heck - we had a team lead by a defensive line coach throwing the ball down the field as opposed to the dink and dunk offense we saw much of the year. (Note: We in Cleveland have suffered the dink and dunk "West Coast" offense all year with the Browns. It is boring and a losing formula with Joe Montana or the like at the helm.)

    IMO CBJ was a work in progress but was progressing. I think his recruiting was excellent and that an extended period of solid classes would have been a great thing.

    All that said - I think we are now in a better place than we were a month ago.

    Bob

  • That is yet to be determined...Lets see what happens in the next couple of years with CTT, and how he implements these solid classes before we annoint Butch as the great recruiter.
    Dan Enos would have a cross word on that statement!

    Sometimes you just need to clear your head!

  • Do I believe that this was a learning situation for Butch? Absolutely. Honestly I think we have players with such intensity and determination that it's hard to see them lose. I don't know what type of Kids UC has recruited in the last 10 years or so, they we seem to recruit the same type of refuse to give up and be beat down kids, It's like there is a box full of potential players with boundless amount of fighting spirit and UC just picks the kids out the box. With that said Lyle seems to be a good coach yet he is one of the more stubborn coaches I have had watched in a while. He hates to be questioned. His decision is always the right decisions. I understand keeping promises but he kept his promise at the beginning of the season. He kept his promises in the beginning when it seemed as if Munchie would be an issue. He should have pulled him at the necessary time. For me it would have been during one of the terrible games when they played against the 1 AA teams. This isn't about Munchie's play though this is about Butches inability to stand up and admit he was wrong about a decisions he made. He rather deflect the answers, to me he has no humiliation... not enough to keep him around with the team.

    Let me make this clear I'm not butt hurt he left. This is based solely off of observations I made of Butch. Did Butch leave because he outgrew the environment he was in like Brian Kelly? No he did not. Brian Kelly took the team as far as it could go. He left on a high note albeit in a terrible fashion. I believe Butch didn't want to deal with the off season here at UC.

  • He's saying Butch left the cupboard empty at CMU for Enos (who replaced him). I haven't followed CMU close enough to know the situation. Are their woes talent based, scheme or other? I do know Enos moved from the Spread to a Pro Set Offense.

  • Back to the issue about the QB situation. To be fair to CBJ he was not the only person that supported Munchie. I raised the QB concern prior to our loss to Toledo and fans of UC that attended practices said that ML performed better in practice than BK. All I know is UC lost two with ML as QB and we were struggling against Syracuse until BK started playing QB. CBJ QB decision, in my opinion showed his inflexability in adjusting. I also thought CBJ did not adequately recruit DL and LB. I think TT will do a better job balancing recruiting defense and offense.

  • The Fordham and Delaware State games should have screamed that performance in practice did not translate to the game day field.

    What I believe complicated the change decision was the Pitt game and win over Va Tech. Something went wrong and ML's play digressed. Not running the ball more as the year went on remains an unanswered mystery. Was the ankle injury a major problem?

    Bob

  • Why your seeing the JUCOS who were never coming until Tubbs got here..But that's not that the cupboard was bare?...Tubbs just didn't see enough of his brand on the shelves.
    Yes...I remember speaking with the QB coach at CMU during Enos's first year at the helm...He said "What cupboard" ?..Not really, but he did say that they were left about zilch to work with, and at least they didn't take a hatchet to the offense, but rather left several plays in the offense so they could make a smoother transition into the pro set.

    Sometimes you just need to clear your head!

  • I don't say this about Lyle out of sour grapes or animosity of him leaving UC, but I'm not sure what kind of success he's going to see at Tennessee. It's a whole different animal of a fan base, media, and culture. Essentially, the tolerance for sticking with a QB longer than a coach should will be a lot lower than it is here in Cincy. Lyle has shown to be very stubborn, which does have its merits, but could very well sink his ship early with the fans and media at Tenn.

    Butch definitely grew into the job at UC. Kelly came in and didn't really need a 'growth' period at all and took the program and it kept it rolling without much of an adjustment. CBJ came in and nearly derailed the damn program. 2011 kept the program from slipping back into the dark ages and to that I give him a ton of credit. I was among the biggest doubters after the game in Knoxville-and again, to his credit CBJ rallied the troops.

    CBJ by all accounts is a great recruiter. But the part that is concerning about CBJ and was one of my only frustrations in the end with him was that he seems to get outcoached in big games vs good teams pretty frequently. Tennessee, and WVU in 2011. This year it was Rutgers (and some may consider UofL) where the offense just looked awful).

    I wish CBJ all the best. Stating the obvious here, but no one ever wants to lose a good coach like Lyle. But when he left I didn't see it spelling devastation for the program or sense we were at risk like I did after BK left. As it turns out, my thinking turned out to be seemingly correct as we've got CTT and a new press box on the way.

  • Butch was as stubborn, thin-skinned and paranoid as they come. We had the talent to go to the BCS game every single year he was here and it never happened. Decisions he made, some of which were very public and some were not, cost us in each of his years here. No doubt he is now a better and more experienced coach than when he arrived in Clifton. However, I just don't see it being good enough in a conference like the SEC. I do not believe he makes it three full years there. Hope he doesn't spend too much time on VolQuest after a loss.

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  • I hear coach Tubberville has a couple openings on his coaching staff. Have any of you guys put in your resumes?

  • Always one of my favorite responses. You can't dispute the issues people have with the (former) coach so you throw something like this out there. Lazy.

  • So two ten win seasons and shares of the big east title are terrible accomplishments I guess. Thank God UT took him off our hands. I'm sure if coach Tubbs hires you to point out all his potential mistakes UC will go 13-0 next season and be BCS champs

  • Right, because I said they were terrible accomplishments. So if I can't help CTT go 13-0, I can't possibly have valid criticisms? Seriously, if you can't see that Lyle left some meat on the bone the past three years with all the evidence directly in front of you, I really don't know what else to say to you.

  • Sorry no "bootlicker" positions on this staff, but I think your a shoe-in for the job opening in Knoxville !baby

    Sometimes you just need to clear your head!

  • I'm not a CBJ apologist at all. But it does seem like we're giving CTT quite the benefit of the doubt against the former, without a lot of evidence that it will be better. I've seen plenty of statements from TTech fans that seem very similar to the kind of things being said now about Jones. Having just witnessed the last three years, I would assume they are just as qualified to make such judgments as we are about CBJ.

    I will hope that we continue our upward trajectory, but frankly avoid any assumption that we've taken a giant leap forward until it proves to be so. Like everyone, I feel some frustration over things that seem like they "could have been" in the last couple years, but it is still hard to argue with 10-win seasons.

  • Just imagine this discussion if the Q1 Belk Bowl disaster had continued.

    IMO we and CBJ got out of a bad situation alive.

  • If he ran away from Cincinnati because of some hard questions what does he think he's going to get at Tennessee? People like to criticize our fan base and media, and our media can be bad, but it is soft compared to the fan bases and media at "big name" schools who demand 11 and 12 seasons per year, and than wonder why you don't win a conference or national championship when you do win those number of games.

  • I'll dispute some issues.

    Butch has been gone for almost a month now so why do some want to continue to turn any opening into a Bash Butch thread? Nevermind, I know the answer.

    Should Butch have turned to Brendon Kay sooner? Yes. He probably should have played in the Louisville game.

    Should Brian Kelly have recognized Tony Pike's abilities sooner? Yes. Instead, the "2012 National Coach of the Year" was preparing to run Pike out of the program, but an injury to Dustin Grutza forced Coach Kelly to use Pike and the rest is history.

    Should Mark Dantonio have turned to Nick Davilla sooner? Yes. Coach Dantonio gave Davilla a token opportunity at Pitt with the UC offense backed up at approximately its own 10-yard-line, and promptly benched him when he didn't move the team. Davilla only got a second chance after Grutza got injured. Then after leading UC to a upset win over Rutgers, Davilla again was the back-up the following week against UConn only to come off the bench again and lead UC to the win.

    Should Bill Belichick have turned to Tom Brady sooner over Drew Bledsoe? Probably. Brady got his chance only after an injury to Bledsoe.

    When you use words like "stubborn, thin skinned and paranoid,"you could be talking about 75% of the head coaches in football. Ask Cleveland Browns' fans about Bill Bellichick.

    Brian Kelly pulled me into his office and read me the riot act for a story I didn't even write. It was written by another site. Mark Dantonio kicked me out of one practice two times during Miami week because he was so paranoid the Redhawks "might" have someone watching his practice.

    You are right. Butch Jones isn't perfect. Neither is Brian Kelly, Mark Dantonio or Bill Belichick. Yet, all are respected and accomplished head football coaches.

    I have no problem with people wanting to pat themselves on the back because they felt Brendon Kay should have been the starter all along, but the baffling part is most never or seldom saw practices.

    Munchie Legaux played well enough for UC to win some games, but once he started losing his confidence, he contiued to get worse and worse.

    When is the right time to pull a quarterback? I don't know, and if we asked 50 college head coaches, they wouldn't all agree either.

    People in a position of high responsibility make dozens of important decisions on a weekly basis. Some invariably won't be right, and some will upset people. It's simply inevitable.

    Everyone on this board knows you disgree with almost everything Butch did, and you're still doing everything possible to try and disagree about more.

    Incidently (from a previous post), I went back and looked to see how many UC defenders raised a fist on the one (and only) possession where they forced a punt. I counted four and maybe five out of the eight that I saw (Battle, Bomar, Mills, C. Williams and possibly Cheatham). Interestingly, they are all seniors. For the record, all 11 defenders weren't in the frame.

    It seems almost ridiculous that we have a thread suggesting that Butch Jones is a coaching idiot after Purdue, Colorado and Tennessee did everything they could to entice him to coach at their school. The guy won 19 games in the last two years and shared two conference titles. Also, neither of those teams were picked to finish any higher than fourth place in the pre-season.

    What people didn't see was how well he managed his practices and how well he built a "team first" attitude among his players. People don't know about how he nurtured many of his players and demanded they follow his code of conduct. People didn't see how he demanded top effort even from his coaches on a daily basis. His players stayed out of trouble and they graduated.

    At some point people need to bury the hatchet and move on.

    This post was edited by Tim Adams 16 months ago

  • By the way I have to say I'm wrong about how bad the media is. The Bengals just won their 10th game of the year and are rolling into the playoffs and you can hear Ken Broo on the after show upset that Bengals fans are happy, taking stupid potshots at Bengals fans who think the Bengals are playing well, ripping the Bengals for passing on some guy who is playing on another team, Buffalo or something, ripping the Bengals offense, defending Baltimore saying the Bengals didn't beat them they were just trying to get out of town, etc., etc. I mean it's stupidly somber and sounds like the Bengals loss. Here comes Paul Daugherty talking about how badly the Bengals have looked, how their 10 wins aren't impressive because they only beat injured teams or teams that are resting, how the team is mediocre despite 10 wins and the playoffs, etc. Typical Cincinnati media trying to suck the fun out of a successful team.

  • We were spoiled with BK, he is IMO one of the top 5 coaches in the country, probably top 3. BJ is a good coach but not great yet. I hope he survives at UT but I have my doubts.

    I get pissed by the hypocrisy, talking about family and then divorcing his family when a prettier girl seduces him but that is an NCAA issue not a coaches issue.

    I give the players tremendous credit for holding it together and winning a game against immense odds. I think we had a little bit of luck of the Irish in the game as well with the two fumbles, reminded me of our undefeated year.

  • Tim, I don't think anybody is saying CBJ did not have many positive qualities. All I was saying is for some reason he did not recognize that Kay should have been given a chance to play in game situations.