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A different perspective

  • I had my issues with the o-line in 2010. You said the same thing about me not seeing practices. 5 weeks after the start of the season, the lineup was switched to one I suggested week 1. Same thing happened this year when I even started to question the decision of Kay vs. Munchie. Am I just really lucky?

    Your focus on the Kay issue in this thread means you don't really know why I am still taking shots at the former coach. My issues with him go far deeper than that one item. For the record, I don't think he is an idiot at all, which a big part of the reason for my dislike.

  • Alright many people is using this to say I am attacking Lyle. I don't care rather Lyle come or goes I'm just making a statement off an observation after watching his interviews and the way he recently conducted himself. I don't it's coincidence he turned down Colorado and the next day he is off to Tennessee.

    That's not the point. Alright I never said Tubbs was better. I never really followed him so I don't have any information on him. I am telling you characteristics and traits I seen when it comes to Butch Jones. He has an issue with confrontation. His game time decision aren't always so great. I am an aspiring coach but I am not on national TV making game time decisions he is. If I ever get the chance I'm sure I will be critiqued and that's fine with me because it's the profession I chose. I think he was a decent coach and had enough raw talent to keep the Bearcats alive. I respect that. Yet he had personality quirks that stopped him from being able to beat GOOD or MORE athletic defenses. He everybody has room to learn.. Yet that's not my argument.

    Tennessee Media will be more treacherous yes. Their fans more belligerent I agree. I just believe he ran from the pressure here at UC. It's that simple. I don't care that he left. He probably felt the fanbase wasn't thankful and he didn't feel appreciated. Hell maybe we were spoiled. But hell that what happens when you follow possibly the best coach UC has ever had. P.S. I don't really like Brian Kelly but the truth is the truth. He's not following anyone great at Tennessee. He just seem often annoyed and irritated with the media and fans.

  • Are you just lucky? You tell me. How exactly did you come to those decisions? Why are you only listing two examples? I'm sure Butch and Co have made thousands of decisions during their time in Clifton. Why don't you give us a list of the key decisions that would've guaranteed BCS bowls.

  • I will also say this. There is too much to highlight. I never said butch wasn't a good motivator or mentor. I'm not bashing Butch repeat this is pure observations I have. Made, maybe some of you have gotten close to him and decided to protect him and I don't have a problem with that. I am just speaking my piece after much thought.

    I don't care for Dantonio I don't think he is that great of a coach. He got hire to MSU prematurely. I will also say that Grutza wasn't a great quarterback his senior year but at that point I was either a senior in highschool or Freshmen in college. But Kelly had no reason to pull Grutza his senior year until he got hurt because Grutza was doing just fine and almost lead UC to a win over OU. So Pike wasn't even necessary. Pike had the physical ability but wasn't mentally capable. Why take your chance with him. I still think Pike should have gotten pulled in the Orange Bowl. Pike is an amazing quarterback I still believe he should be in the NFL. One thing Kelly never did was allow his shortcomings to deny UC the ability to win a game. That's what I do know (I really don't like BK by the way). But Butch wasn't the only ones who gave these boys a since of ownership of their team.

    I hope to see a better BJ in the future one who will stand his ground and admit his mistakes and the things he done wrong. I hope that for every coach. Butch was stubborn with his offense Philosophy (see Zach Callaros ) and his personnel. I would like to seem him get better. I was just stating my own thoughts and observations.

  • The Bears won ten and still sucked. Smith will probably lose his job. At the pro level it is all about who you can beat.

  • Great point. I did not question thousands of decisions Lyle made, yet I have people accusing me of disagreeing with pretty much everything Butch did. I only post opinions I am pretty damn sure are accurate and if you have been paying attention (pretty clearly you have not), I haven't been wrong too many times when many thought I was going out on a limb. Nothing is guaranteed (but of course it is easier to argue using absolutes like that), but I really only need one key decision on my list and I think we would have been a BCS bowl this year and last.

  • You are fine. It is me they are talking about.

  • Some people can't get beyond a punch in the face....So why would you even expect them to recognize the Forest from the trees?.....Because the truth is to scary.

    Sometimes you just need to clear your head!

  • You're grinding a personal ax and using this website to do it.

    You obviously have a very high opinion of your opinions.

    Let's see how good my memory is.

    You didn't like Butch "throwing players under the bus" when he said players didn't buy in during the 2010 a season. Present and past players have agreed that a lot if players didn't buy in.

    You surmised players didn't like the "fist up" defense because of one situation in the Belk Bowl.

    You didn't like O-Lineman switching sides and claim you were right despite the fact that UC did exactly that in 2010 and 2011..

    You say it was a fact that the cupboard wasn't bare in 2010 and CBJ was just making excuses. Still not sure how you proved that as a fact.

    Those are some of the complaints I remember, but my biggest issue is this website is being used to grind a personal ax with Butch Jones.

    I'm just tired of it. If I have an issue with a person, I address it with him. If you or anyone else has a personal issue with Butch Jones, take it up with him, but stop using this website to take personal shots.

    Ralph, I have no issue with you or the guy that started this thread. I haven't even read his posts.

  • We did have the talent to go to BCS bowls in all three years that Butch was here, but I would say two of those years he did the best he could.

    In 2010 he could not have seen all the injuries coming. If I remember right, we lost several linebackers, secondary, offensive linemen, and receivers. At one point we started 8 sophomores and no seniors on defense. We had the youngest defense in the country. Everyone remembers how we returned a couple receivers, Zach, and Pead, but we really didn't return enough players to overcome the injuries we had. Saying we were a BCS team is a very loose statement. If you think we had a BCS caliber team then so did about 30 other teams.

    In 2011 we had a very good team, but you can't put that season on Butch. I thought we did pretty good considering we lost our star quarterback for four games. I read a post on here where someone said Butch was out-coached in the 2011 West Virginia game, but I do not believe that. They were a very good team and we lost Zach in the second or early third quarter. I thought we did pretty good considering we played a quarterback that hadn't ever played before and he came in when we were losing and lost because of a blocked field goal at the end. I thought 2011 was Butch's best coaching job.

    This post was edited by bcatfan08 16 months ago

  • The lens I view whether or not we are BCS caliber is could we win the Big East. When I say BCS, I don't mean to say we had top 10 talent in the country but that we legitimately could have won a league that was just not very good in each of the past three years. So I would agree that about 30 teams in the country had as good or better talent in each of the last years, but none in the Big East were substantially better.

  • Everyone needs to keep the issue of access in mind when posting about players and coaching decisions. We subscribe to the Lair for the window it provides into the UC programs we all follow.
    It isn't any great leap to conclude that over the top or even moderate criticism of coaching decisions can and do effect the access the BCL team has with athletes, coaches and practices.
    Early in the "why don't we try Kay" debate, I posted a comment that most spread QB's are expected to complete 60% of their passes. I didn't know if Kay could complete 60%, I had simply observed that Munchie didn't. The comments that followed led me to conclude that more than QB performance was potentially at stake and it wasn't particularly reasonable on my part to expect Tim or anyone else on the BCL staff to run against a clearly entrenched staff decision. Butch and others had bought into the potential of a more athletic QB and weren't likely to change until they were ready too.
    Butch is gone now and working furiously to move recruits to Tennessee. Lets back CTT, his staff and our new recruits to keep this train moving forward.
    Bashing each others opinions is another matter all together and I look forward to your thoughts.

  • I still don't like they way Butch talked about the first year's team.

    I said CJ Cobb did not have the lateral quickness to play tackle and he was later moved inside, so yes I was right on that one.

    You have really latched onto "prove" on cupboard is bare discussion. I may not have "proved" it, but I have pretty darn good evidence the roster situation was not nearly as dire as it was painted.

    I have a pretty high opinion of the information I have (much of which I have not posted) regarding our former coach. I have no access to Butch nor do I care to. This is my outlet to discuss one of the things I care most about in this world. Most who know me know how much information it would take for me to have such a negative view of someone associated with the program I love.

  • Tim, you'll probably get me for saying this, but that comment was very "Yogi-esque" lol

    To the original post: The premise simply does not fit. He wants to bail out of here and not face the offseason critics, and go to Tenne-FREAKING-see to escape it?

    Ummmm... no...

    I know the Bearcat boards online show a lot of passion, and anger towards a head coach when all does not go well, but we're talking about a school here, that kept a coach for ten years, who compiled a ten games under .500 career record. I realize the bar has since been raised, but still, jobs do not get much lower pressure than this one.

  • Didn't Grutza come into the Hawaii game and bail out our bacon?


    Dec. 7, 2008

    Final Stats | Notes | Photo Gallery

    HONOLULU (AP) -- Marty Gilyard caught a 69-yard touchdown pass with 4:42 to play and Cincinnati's defense stepped up as the 13th-ranked Bearcats rallied for 19 straight points in the final quarter to beat Hawaii 29-24 on Saturday night.
    Gilyard finished with seven catches for 136 yards for the BCS-bound Bearcats (11-2), who won their sixth straight game and a school-record 11th game of the season.

    Down by two touchdowns with less than 13 minutes left, Cincinnati scored nearly at will against the deflated Warriors (7-6) and took a 29-24 lead on Dustin Grutza's scoring pass to to Gilyard.

    This post was edited by Bcatbob 16 months ago

  • I don't necessarily agree with everyting ack is saying ( I do agree with some points) but I have no problem with what he is saying. He obviously has a lot of passion for Bearcat football and that is something our fan base needs a whole heck a lot more of. It is refreshing to talk to other Bearcat fans about the program and this forum gives us the opportunity to accept all points of view from many perspectives.

    IMO our message boards are some of the tamest on the internet. Over on the WVU boards they are questioning whater Dana H. is the man for the job. Years ago they called Bill Stewart every name in the book. The Pitt boards question their coaches on a daily basis. Even Louisville fans sometimes stop drinking the Charlie Strong Kool-Aid sometimes and rip him to shreds. I do agree with some of the points made by others in this post that Jones seemed bothered by the criticism. I recall many weeks where it was evident that Jones and crew were following along these boards and responded to points being made.

    I am going to preface my last point by saying I don't think Jones was terrible. He did a lot of good things as noted by Tim (recruiting, discipline, establishing the 1200 Club, etc.). But, if Jones can't take the heat our fans have offered, he is in store for a miserable stay ini Knoxville. Those fans will not cut him a bit of slack and will, at times, be downright cruel.

    Here is an example of what Butch has to look forward to in Knoxville. Here is how one of their fans responded to Lane Kiffin when he left for the USC job.

    This post was edited by CliftonAve 16 months ago

  • Saying we had the talent to go to a BCS bowl in 2010 is a huge stretch. You're talking getting 3-4 more conference wins. We had a pretty young defense that year and had a ton of injuries. Even if we had no injuries throughout the year we'd still have a tough time getting to a bowl game. We lost four of our five conference games by three scores or more. Having Zach back doesn't mean that we had a BCS caliber team.

    In 2011 we had a very good team, but Butch didn't have Zach get injured. We only lost to Tennessee in the games that Zach didn't play. We likely would have been 10-2 or 11-1 team if Zach hadn't gotten injured.

    My whole point is that you seem to be putting a lot of blame on Butch for things that were out of his control. I'll admit that 2010 we were much worse than our talent, but we weren't BCS caliber. In 2011 we were very good, but it wasn't Butch's fault that Zach got hurt.

  • 1. You've made that clear on a number of occasions.

    2. Everyone was saying that including me.

    3. "Prove" was the word you used, and no one latches on to every word as well as you do.

    4. Maybe you don't know all the facts or your sources.

    Regardless, there's a time to move on regarding a thread, and I've reached mine.

  • Who cares about what happened in the past. Let's all move on and support the current staff. Time to move on and focus on the 2013 version of the football Bearcats.

  • I would say 2010 is the least comfortable of the three years saying we had BCS talent (but as you pointed out), would be the most we underperformed. My assessment has a lot to do with my perceived view of the relative weakness of the Big East that year. Also, the way we played Oklahoma showed me we should have competed better in the Big East. The downward sprial had a lot to do with players not buying in, which is an issue other than talent. I am not saying we should have gone to a BCS game all three years, but I still think the potential was there in any of the three years.

  • 1) For clarity, I am not saying there was not a significant number of players that did not buy in, just that I didn't like it being say.
    2) "Everyone" was not saying that. You made the practice comment to me and Todd was all over me among many others.
    3) Hereby amend "prove" to "there is a lot of evidence that shows it was not true."
    4) I know I don't know all the facts, but I've heard enough from enough different sources to form the view I have.

    Moving on.

  • Agreed. I could care less about 2010, 2011, and now 2012. The 2013 season is the only thing that matters now.

  • On a positive note, CBJ did what was asked of him after year one! He had a hiccup going from MAC level to BCS Level. He made the job attractive enough to have a coach like Tubs to take interest, and Yes I know that Babcock had ties before and Tubs' wife is from the area but still that is pretty darn impressive.

    As for cupboards being bare in 2010? We had how many draft picks from the next years class (2011) and it looks to be at least at minimum 2-4 more draftees from this years (2012) class and most of them played in 2010 as starters or came in as back ups during that time!

    We just lost to Oklahoma by 2 points and most can remember a young WR that muffed a punt and missed a couple key catches and unfortunately that could have been the game changer, and had not been for all the cramping issues/dehydration issues we suffered along with time difference, I still believe we would have beat Fresno State.

    We had all the talent in 2010 that lead us to 2 back to back Big East titles and 2 back to back Bowl wins! It was at times on the players from that year not executing and other times it was CBJ & Co. with play calling or player management. It happens. Was I pissed during the 2010? Yeah, But I still watched and held hope each game that we would turn it around. I was squealing like a little girl during the Oklahoma game! It was exciting.

    The big thing I can truly say I think some people have over look is this, We had been blessed and lucky to have a coach like Brain Kelly come in. He did something special here. He lead us to a 12-0 regular season? First time in school history! 2 BCS Bowl Bids! Signing 4 star recruits, Got the Facilities improved and the Bubble built. He was about business first (winning) and having fun second. He led his offense to high scoring and he did something Dantonio couldn't have. (I like Dantonio for the record but look at Dantonio's record this year, he is good but not bk level) Coach Kelly was smart, smooth, and he was a modern day Rico Sauve'! He knew what buttons to push and not to push on the fans during interviews, he was all around just great with P.R.! He is one heck of a football coach, plan and simple.

    Then enter Butch Jones! This is from my view and I think most people would share it or similar?

    Butch Jones comes in after being mentored by Kelly at CMU and then taking over at CMU as Head Coach then to UC to do the same. I don't know about you all but my first thought when got CBJ was we had another CBK because I listened to the idiotism of ESPN and heard how he was going to be a carbon copy, etc. Boy was that a kick in the groin when reality came!

    Butch Jones is a good coach, once again not on the level of BK but there aren't many, look for yourself. For all the coaches across the US in DIV-1 college football (120), You have a elite group, Urban Meyer, Nick Sabin, Les Miles, Chris Petersen, Brian Kelly, Chip Kelly, and a few others, all who produce top flight programs year in and year out. They produce high draft picks. They recruit the best of the best talent. They all have two things in common? They all know how to win and treat it as business first and fun second, and they know how to talk to fans. They will play on the emotions of fans all day. That gets fan bases ramped up or calmed down. Simply put, Butch Jones really didn't have that quality. He had is style which was down to earth, and personal! It was a completely different style than what we just had in BK. Simply put it's like expecting a Porche in your drive way when you go outside and instead realizing you have to drive your Ford Fiesta!

    Butch in his own right is one heck of a coach! His style is different from what we thought we were getting and anything we had before. You want to blame someone for that, don't blame Butch, blame Mike Thomas former AD. Butch will do great in the South. The South enjoys two things, Family and Food! I love southern food! His personal/family style of coaching is what was needed at UT and he will be successful. May be a ruff first year but he will get better. He has all he needs to be successful and he knows how to win as well.

    Most of us are from Cincinnati and I know of a couple people now that live across the US (im in Michigan now) but most of us were raised with similar qualities. Work Ethic, Family, and Providing for your family with your work ethic and when all of that is done, then it is time to have fun. That was how I was raised. So while I loved and will continue to follow CBJ at UT, he wasn't my style of coach. CBK was my style and I believe Coach Tubs is cut from the same clothe as CBK and I firmly believe that we are headed back towards and beyond what we had with CBK with CTT, Babcock and Ono at the helm! They all believe in family, but they all believe in working to provide for that family with hard work ethic. Business first, fun second is my style. Because it works! You fight hard to Win, Fun will always follow!

    With that said, I think we need to maintain the schooling we had under CBJ because it was great. One thing I will never forget is his saying. "Were building young men" Remember, Student always comes before Athlete!

    All I have to say, Past is past and now it's time to go to work!

    We Bleed Red! We Bleed Black! We Bleed Passion! We Are Bearcats!

  • Yep...Last time I checked We do have a new coach...I really don't ever want to hear that other guys name mentioned again....Lets do move on to 2013

    Sometimes you just need to clear your head!